As I sit here listening to M.Ward’s “Requiem”, I think John’s point earlier this week about the thrill of listening to albums is well taken. The personal one-on-one discussion that you can have with a song is really wonderful and that absorption of detail is something that gets lost in a live performance. Nevertheless, I think there is something that has to be said for seeing a band live.
Going out and listening to live music is not something that is given to you in a nice easy to swallow package. I think all the complaints about live music are all related to inconveniences – smoke, bad music from bad bands, bad sound, money, being tired, and so on. But consider the fact that an LP is an artifact – beautiful and very personal yes, but it’s static. Where is the chance operation? Where is the unpredictability? Where is that fleeting uniqueness of memory? Leave the comforts of your domicile; experience the sloppiness that is life and, amongst all the noise and clutter, go out and converse with your fellow human beings.
Oh fuck it’s that crappy opening band that you tried to avoid! Look – over there – isn’t that that loudmouth asshole who couldn’t shut the fuck up during that Jazz show? Hey did you catch Kevin Jackson at Notsuoh last week? Man they played a killer Klezmer set! They fucking missed notes and got off-time but those guys played with heart. Fists were pounding on the tables to the beat! Fuck perfection! In this smelly bar with its sticky floors and foul smell lies the irresponsibility of arriving to work tired and possibly hungover the next day, the irresponsibility of wasting a good 20 bucks in the door and booze that you should be saving, the irresponsibility of filling your lungs with the ashen colored smoke of crappy cigarettes, and the irresponsibility, that “is part of the pleasure of all art; it is the part the schools cannot recognize.”* You with me? !!
Now, me, I make noise too and I have to say that there’s nothing more fun than busting your ass, coordinating a show, making flyers, rehearsing and then (like some bad “Our Gang” episode) put on a “little show” for people. I remember my first show at Commerce Street Warehouse. We were so scared to play that Malcolm McDonald had to tell us – “Hey, you have to play BEFORE people leave.” John Cramer, Mike Gunn, Kyle Phillips, and I played a terrible set I’m sure but where would we be without that first step? I’ll tell you where, we’d be one those people at work who clock into work and bust their ass for a company and die with their resume on as their epitaph. Fuck that!
I mean, look at these Debra Wendell snapped photos below of us in High School; I think this is our third show – Malcolm’s Birthday Party At Chez Imbecile. Malcolm got us to wear some dresses and I distinctly remember butchering “All Tomorrow Parties” My guitar strap is a tie for Christ sake! You can’t be this idiotic in a garage! No, we took the freak show on the road! (Well… down I-45 at least.) We played a show once where we did nothing but flatten a BBQ pit. We played a show where we fell to the floor, fed-back, and laid still as fake blood gushed from some insane Larry Liska engineering marvel for 20 minutes and billed ourselves as The Dead. There was a show where we tried to crucify a drugged-out Brian Firr and a show where we set cooked meat on the grill and when the fire roared at Escondido the bartender jumped over the bar to put out the fire. We did the show where we got so giddy with the fog machine that nobody could see 2 inches from their nose causing the bartender to be pissed because nobody would walk in the bar except for Gibby Haynes. I mean it goes on and on. Fuck last year we did the show where we Bar-B-Qued for people at Sound Ex and I think we’re still $200 in the hole from that endeavor.
Look, strings break, you offend people, you miss notes, hell you even frikkin’ bomb but goddamn that’s the chaotic fun of a live show. Make your noise, commune with your fellow noisemakers, raise a bottle of Shiner to those who came out, and fling your poo like the monkey you are. Playing live is like a baby kicking and screaming vainly; “Look what I made in my diaper! What’s on you epitaph, motherfucker?!”
A wee John Cramer
Malcolm sings for his birthday
Malcolm and John.
Likely butchering some Stooges song.
Play spot the geek.
Hints: tie guitar-strap, Bauhaus
sticker, & overcoat over dress.
*Pauline Kael “Trash, Art, and the Movies” from Going Steady
did you see my comment on johns post or did john’s post spontaneously bring up schlong weasel-type memories on everyone?
A few comments:
1. Your request to spot the geek is redundant. There’s not a geek free one in the bunch.
2. I look like I was anorexic.
3. Live music can provide things recorded music never can.
4. While the “sloppiness of life” you tout so highly is inarguably omnipresent at live shows, I’ve found life to be irrevocably sloppy period.
5. “Inconvenience” does not explain away all the problems that arrive through live music, and that includes bad music from bad bands. That’s not inconvenient, it just sucks. In other words, I don’t stay home so much because it’s convenient. I tend to be happier at home. I’ve seen thousands of shows and I’m just kind of over the whole experience. It’s not as fun as it used to be for me. Don’t confuse choice with fear. And seriously, how many worthwhile instances per live show would you attribute to “conversing with your fellow human being”? Most of the time I ended up cnoversing with some shiftless drunken bozo. In fact, take the Charalambides show. I never really spoke with Tom, and there are many reasons, but for the ska eof argument, I’ll illuminate one: a certain unnamed shiftless drunken bozo consistently spoke over anyone else who wanted to actually “converse with their fellow human being”. Okay, I’m grousing.
6. It takes enormous balls to quote Pauline Kael for any reason, but especially to defend an argument for catching Kevin Jackson rocking the Klezmer.
7. My epitaph will read: go fuck yourself, no seriously.
8. Great blog, by the way. Thanks for digging that show up, I had a blast that night, and many more of those Schlong Weasel nights, whether in a dress, or… uh… totally naked.
9. Live music can be the shit, I simply wanted to point out in my post the other day that both have unassailable merits over the other. My position on live music is just personal, I know it’s not for everyone.
Ta ta…
The shot you labeled “Malcolm and John, Likely butchering some Stooges song,” is actually of Kyle and John. I’m sure Kyle will thank you to change that.
No way that’s Malcolm to your left. Look at his top and plus Kyle’s hair is lighter in color.
Oh and I kind of conceded in my first paragraph that albums have their place. I never suggested that staying home was fear but more more an issue of overcoming the pull of gravity on people’s butts; I am totally guilty of doing that.
Also, granted while seeing a crappy band before a good one is annoying, Rudyard’s and the Proletariat have places you can escape to for at least for a short time. Hell, but a really crappy band generally makes for an amusing anecdote the following day – MYD being one such example. I can still get a laugh out of bands like that. I fear the boring much more than the truly sucky.
Oh and Kevin Jackson Rocked!
Hey I wasn’t drunk at Charalambides!
I guess on your last point, yeah live music CAN be shit but that uncertainly the thing I like most.
My last point wasn’t that live music is shit, but that it can be the shit.
And just to be contrite, I don’t own a single record that has ever even sniffed the heels of the best shows I’ve seen. I guess my contention is that recorded music is more reliable and consistent, and when I look in the mirror I realize that these things are more important the older I get. Not too sexy an idea, but servicable none the less.
And you’re right, that is Malcolm.
I was agreeing with you; the all caps “can” meant to emphasize that agreement. Sorry for the confusion.
Ramon and John, I think that to an extent you guys are setting up a
faulty choice between recorded and live music. I think these two excerpts are illustrative:
“Oh and I kind of conceded in my first paragraph that albums have
their place. I never suggested that staying home was fear but more
more an issue of overcoming the pull of gravity on people’s butts; I
am totally guilty of doing that.”
I think it’s dismissive to say that albums “have their place,” because
it implies that the place that albums have is lesser than that of live
music. The consensus that you are building toward here is that
recorded and live music have places that are different, but similar in
importance.
“And just to be contrite, I don’t own a single record that has ever
even sniffed the heels of the best shows I’ve seen.”
I’m not sure that I could agree with this at all. When I think about
the best live shows I’ve seen, I come up with some names and rough
dates, but I barely remember more than a few moments of most of them. But still, if I had to choose the shows I’ve seen friends play in Atlanta or hear
the records, I might choose the shows. I might trade a Melt-Banana
album for a Melt-Banana show. I definitely enjoy watching my brother play live more than listening to a Deerhunter record. But would I trade my Fugazi albums for
a Fugazi show? Would I trade Don Caballero II for a chance to see the
band with Ian Williams and Mike Banfield? Probably not. Would I trade
0+2=1 for a Nomeansno show? No way.
This is not to posit the priority of recorded over live music, because
if I ask myself, would I, in general, rather be able to listen to
my favorite records or see my favorite bands live, my
answer is that I no longer have any criteria on which to base this
decision. The rewards that I receive from these activites are so
different that to rank one above the other is meaningless; I’m
comparing apples to oranges. And so my conclusion is that although it
is possible to say that some live experiences are superior to some recordings, and vice versa, it cannot be said categorically that there are live happenings that can never be surpassed by recorded music . The way that live and recorded music enrich us is far too complicated to permit such a linear ranking, and the two kinds of musical experience are equally valuable for different reasons.
i just have to say opening the envelope sent to you in the mail ramon and finding a treasure trove of photographs like this puts getting a digital camera even further down the list of things i “need”.
now i’m a live music fiend. i need multisensory overload on a regular basis. but there is something to be said for a perrrrrfect record that makes you wanna cry into your carbonated apple juice.
Hey Danny,
I’m not impling that the place that albums have is lesser than that of live music at all.
In saying “they have their place” I mean exactly what you suggest when you write “that recorded and live music have places that are different, but similar in importance.”
[e.g. See my Charalmbides review, "This is to me how albums and live performance should work – as two distinct but unified parts of a whole." ]
John wrote a blog about how much he loves listeing to recorded music and I wrote one about how much I like going out and catching a live show. I never intended my blog as setting-up and either/or choice but to be compliments to each other. [That and hopefully rally some people to get off their duff.]
I think the problem is that, since I’m being sloppy and rambling in my blog, it’s seen as some challenge to John’s commentary as opposed to simply being a compliment to it- something I unsucessfully tried to establish in my introductory paragraph. A more reserved tone would make sense if I am signing the prises of absorbing an album while the more sloppy and histionic voice I felt would be more appropriate for singing the praises of seeing live shows.
I don’t think either of us are making Division or Composition Arguments, though it could be read that way, but simply speaking in the aggregate with an unspoken implications that there are vast exceptions to any assertions we make.
OK back to work and this Big Star album.
man, speaking of crying to a perfect record. fucking big star. i need a hankey! next you’re going to tell me you’re listening to time bomb highschool by the reigning sound. ho, man!
speaking of the live experience vs. the recorded experience i saw the reigning sound perform songs from timebomb highschool live. i’ve declared it before to be THE best concert i saw in 2005. two totally totally different experiences that make me break down in tears of joy for completely different reasons.
I feel weirdly caught in the middle on this discussion. For various reasons, I hate playing live, although there are parts of it I love. I also generally find myself disappointed by live shows, though occasionally they are really sublime.
But aside from all that, it’s worth pointing out that there was a time, not much more than a century ago, when *all* music was an intrinsically social experience; that is, since there was no recording technology, all music had to be performed in person – whether the audience was only the musician or was a large crowd.
As a person who generally decries the increasing tendency of people in this country to isolate themselves from others, I feel sort of…morally obligated, in a sense, to support live music. Yet on a personal level, I actually enjoy music more when I’m by myself listening to recordings. Part of this is just because I’m able to concentrate on it more. It’s a control thing too – I can make it as loud or soft as I want, I choose the tracks, etc. And like Ramon says, there’s just this inertia that keeps people in their comfort zone.
There’s another aspect too: which is that technology has fundamentally changed what music sounds like and how it is created. Particularly if you’re into electronica, techno, ambient, trip-hop, downbeat or whatever. Some of this stuff can be performed live, but ultimately most of it is generated by synths or samples, blurring the line between a live performance and a bunch of people getting together to listen to recordings, however cleverly interleaved.
Yet if Portishead comes in concert, I will fork over my hard-earned dough to see them, because even within the context of more modern, technologically aided forms of music, there’s still plenty of room for improvisation, experimentation, and…the sort of weird chemistry that can get going between a really great audience, a great venue, and a great act.
I think a lot of this has to do with how a person views a recording. Personally I don’t subscribe to the “recording as document of the band at a given point in time” philosophy that Ramon does. I really believe a recording should be the archetype, the sort of Platonic ideal, of what the song should sound like. This is one reason that Ramon and I invariably argue about post production on LP4 albums…it’s just a fundamentally different philosophy about recording. Both philosophies have serious drawbacks: Ramon’s philosophy leads to a higher percentage of shitty recordings, my philosophy leads to recordings never getting done at all, or sounding too sterile and losing the feel. In the end you really need both philosophies in different measures, depending on the situation.
Geez Daniel, neither Ramon nor I ascribed to your either/or theory. Now, my statement about live shows and heel sniffing was not put forth as a way of ending the discussion in any count, it was a way of reaching towards the entire point of my entering this discussion in the first place. This entire thread started over a farly vague lean towards the idea that live music might, perhaps, trump the recorded document. I threw in my two cents on behalf of recorded music, not to be the devils advocate, nor to convince anyone that the gospel was spewing forth, but simply to remind the music geeks in this blog that both formats in their generally understood presentations have equally high merits just as much as they can both blow. As usual, Clinton is able to interject on a level far more thoughtful than my own, and lay the point to rest by exposing the world beyond our myopic swayings. The live shows that I claim to have such unparalleled might are an almost purely subjective experience (though no doubt an experience that many could easily share with no prodding from me). I wasn’t presuming to claim that seeing live shows – at whose heels recordings sniff – would somehow mean that every man woman and child that reads my comments must be compelled to agree with me. I just hold dear the experience of witnessing those shows. Any music fan, including you I hope, will have equally meaningful stories about live and recorded music. Capiche?
Well part of this blog for me is a writing exercise as anything else. So when I read Danny’s comment my first thought was “Ok well that didn’t work did it.” I mean if I can’t convey my point that’s my fault and not Danny’s. And the thing is Danny is a write whom I admire as much as I admire his drumming. I actually read one of his reviews in the press (before I read the byline) and was really engaged about a band I wasn’t particularly a fan of.
Anyhow I’m rambling but one of my goals here is to be a better writer and this essay definitely could have used a few more drafts to tighten up my points.
“A wise man talks because he has something to say; a fool talks because he has to say something” . . . the latter being me.
Perhaps Ramon, you should not write unless you have something to write about. That way your writing won’t insult something or someone just so you can selfishly get in the last word.
relax
Well Mr. Anonymous.
Since both of your points are rubbish, may I suggest you end with a conclusion and not begin with one.
I clearly do have a topic “I like live music – both as a fan and as a performer”. The question (which we covered extensively in these comments) was if this was a challenge to John’s blog about recorded music. To recap, it was meant as a compliment and my introductory paragraph equivocated this. Glad to catch you up on last weeks discussion.
Secondly, the point of this and any blog is not to have the last word but to bring about some discussion on a topic.
On the other hand, comments posted on a-priori biases about writing will always allow for easy rebuttal from the author thus giving the author the last word.
Ramon, I did not mean to offend anyone. The simple point I was trying to make is think before you write. If you feel like you must exercise your writing skills then perhaps it should be done in the privacy of a pad and pencil tucked safely away from public view.
You are entitled to your opinion but it’s pretty hard to gauge anything without an audience.
Look you don’t like my writing which is fair. But I am never going to improve without failing and without putting my head on the chopping block of public opinion.
I like music and I like trying to convey what I like about it. I think there is a challenge to writing a new piece every week. James Kochalka does a daily 4 panel strip as well just as a way of improving his skills. It doesn’t always work but I still buy them because when he’s on he’s brilliant. So, that’s what I pay good money for so that’s where I come from. Believe me, once I fine tune what I want to say it will get pretty dull and predictable…
Ok it already is but dull and predictable but at least it will read better.
anyhow, please feel free to make particular points but stay away from generalities as the latter is of little use. Secondly, saying to simply stop writing is hardly useful as it’s kind of fun for me to write. If that is your only offering may I suggest you simply stop reading as it ain’t going to get much better than this.
; )
Ramon, I do like your writing. I wouldn’t be reading any of your posts as well as your friends if I didn’t find it interesting and informative. Perhaps I should be careful how I write my comments as the tone is inevitably lost and may be viewed as insulting and offensive. Neither was intended.
That said, I believe everyone has their own personal preferance as to what appeals to them.
Personally I like recorded material that tend to be clean, slick, and well produced. In doing so I get the impression that the band has put much time and effort into expressing their art. I love discovering new sounds to a record even after I’ve played it over and over again.
Once that personal connection is made it’s the thrill of being in the same room as the band. The music never sounds as good to me live, but I get to see the band in their true form.
I guess in a live performance you trade the producer in a studio for a good sound engineer in concert. After speaking to a number of musicians I see this is often an impossible feat.
So I believe we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Correct me if I’m wrong, but after reading your posts I get the impression that for the most part,you watch a band live and then if their to your liking you buy their record where as I buy the record first and then if I’m interested I watch them live.
This shouldn’t be a forum to try to impose one’s opinions on others but to simply state why we like what we like and to respect that.
Ok well maybe I misunderstood your intent but I love well produced records too. I think that is what I was trying to get at with previous comments where my conclusion was that I intended to give recorded music its due but wanted to chime in about live music and that I should have been more explicit about it.
Anyhow, the thing is that in music criticism there is or wrong or right really. If someone really loves some teenie Disney recording then fine by me and I think that’s kind of implicit here. But ultimately the idea is to say why I like something and you are welcome to disagree or agree – ideally in a manner that promotes discussion. If I’m writing about a specific band or recording hopefully you may check them out and if it’s about a topic in music then maybe you will throw in your two cents. That’s kind of the idea.
Anyhow thanks