MC5- A True testimonial, I’ve seen it twice and it is simply a great film. David C. Thomas (Director) and Laurel M. Legler (Producer) clearly had a love for the MC5 when they set out to make this film. It’s a warts and all documentary of a great band ‘s rise and fall, the story of those who knew when to abandon ship and those who couldn’t, the story of an era and a city, and a testament to the greatness of a subset of music we like to call Rock and Roll. All of this without the soap opera sentimentality of a “Behind the Music” episode. I really can’t recommend this film strongly enough. The footage is spectacular (hell, even the Feds got some great footage), the surviving members are charming, honest, and sympathetic, and the story arc is just gripping.
So why, given it’s brilliance, can’t you rent it or buy it? Well, I wondered too so I asked on the Terrascura list. Jeff Penczak sent me a link to an exhaustively documented blog called Detroit Tango and here is a Detroit Woman on the Street response from Windy Weber of Windy and Carl and Stormy Records :
The film had a huge debut party here in Detroit, and promos were given out willy nilly, which meant there were lots floating around. Then Wayne Kramer stepped up and said “our agreement was that I would be in charge of the music, and you did not put me in charge, and you did not give me the credits (ie more money) you said I’d get and now I’m suing you”. So the movie was halted after hundreds of promos were given out.
So the bootleg copies started floating around, and every store in Detroit sold them for awhile and we even had a screening for it here in the shop where a friend who works for Wayne State University brought 3 hours of riot footage to show. (very scary to see blocks and blocks of Detroit in flames – really helped us understand how the place is so deserted and worn out now).
In the midst of this, grimble grumble came to stay with us, and when we told them we’d played the film to a room full of people, they were shocked. their friends were the people who made the movie, and the movie makers had no idea at that point that thousands of boots had been made and sold already in Detroit, and it was pretty sad to see the results of Wayne Kramer being a buttbrain when in reality these people made the movie because they love the MC5 so much.
So this past few weeks some sort of legal decision was made, and it favored the movie makers and not Wayne Kramer, but a second lawsuit started in the midst of all this about who had rights to the band name and who had rights to use Rob Tyner’s image and Rob Tyner’s family wanted more money and sued Wayne Kramer and it all got out of control.
A friend of ours even was just given a bootleg copy while he visited AUSTRALIA, so obviously the thing has gone far and wide. A legit release at this point might make a fraction of it’s original money potential because so many people already have it.
So there you go – dumb greed. What I don’t get is that you’d think all band members would at least be happy to end the band’s legacy on the celebratory note that is this film especially given the MC5, one of the great American Rock and Roll bands, went out playing a pathetic show to a relatively small crowd at a venue that once was synonymous with their greatness.
“…and I just looked at everyone’s faces in the audience and it was like they all knew…they all knew I was a fraud and that i was a fuck up and that the whole thing had turned to shit. I could see it in their faces.” … Wayne Kramer on the final MC5 performance.
Clearly, nothing was learned from that last MC5 show. But, you know, fuck all this, because the thing is in the end music isn’t about money or egos and shit like that. Once that crap gets in the way, it isn’t music, it’s business: white-collar suit-and-tie bullshit. I mean it bores me to read what I just wrote because in the end these legal battles have nothing to do with the music. So, instead just watch this clip below from youtube – amateur television hosts and a great MC5 performance far far away from any courtroom or boardroom.
BONUS Youtube : Ok this has nothing to do with the rest of the post aside from the fact that it is cool and besides Ms Rosa’s birthday was this week.
Credits:
MC5 Stills – A True Testimonial (c) 2004 Future Now Films
YouTube Video -
MC5 from Detroit Tube Works which seems to have run sometime in the late 60s and into the early 70s.
13th Floor Elevators - Anyone know where this is from?
After reading your post about MC5 I decided to further reseach the subject on Wikipedia. What a sorted story of self destruction and a string of bad luck. However, it almost seems ironic that such a band and their given situation would go on to influence two different genres of music.
Unfortunately they’ve always been money grubbing tools or they would never have gotten involved with Jon Landau. Landau got excited about the possibility of making lots of money from them after hearing Kick Out the Jams, but he says he was disappointed after actually seeing them because they couldn’t play their instruments, so he made them learn to play before recording Back in the USA. And we all know how that turned out. Watching that video, I don’t know how he could say they didn’t know how to play. I guess he never thought anybody would call him on his bullshit. He got his money in the end though, when he convinced Springsteen that he was the new Woody Guthrie and that they could sell millions with the blue collar everyman character. Landau was right about that, at least.
Sparrow’s comments on Carlos’ last blog says it all.
Great post Ramon, and great film. Thanks for the viewing.
“…for you guys driving around in your cars, don’t freak out this is really a television program.”
I could watch Gail the Announcer a hundred times. I see there are a few other Detroit Tube Works videos out there. Gonna have to check them out and I hope Gail’s in them.
Clearly Wayne Kramer has some personal issues. He sees himself as a fraud. It doesn’t matter what the audience sees at that point.
I see them as kids “playing band.” Really good at it but just garage band kids who couldn’t take themselves seriously as stars. And I got no problem with that. Yeah they got greedy but in that blue collar ain’t never had more than a fifty dollar bill sort of way.
This has been an eye-opener. I did not know that distinctive 13th Floor Elevator sound came from a jug.
Happy Birthday Rosa.
I think that Elevators clip is from American Bandstand, believe it or not.
And the sound technically came from a jug, but years later, Tommy Hall admitted that he was just going “doo too too doo too too” into the jug to make that sound.
gayle, i give you thanks and praise you for your glory.
thank you for my morning shot of roky.
Kramer doesn’t make it a habit to think of himself as a fraud, he thinks of himself as a fraud in regards to the endtimes of the MC5. And considering the circumstances, it’s hard to blame him. As for the rest of the band’s life, I think he sees it as a rousing success.
Did someone mention Roky? What an amazing life he’s had. I can’t believe they were going to give him a ten year prison term for one marijuana joint!! Then pleading insanity to avoid that sentence and as a result getting commited to a mental facility enduring multiple shock treatments. What the fuck was Austin all about in the sixties anyway?
I think the old saw that Roky was committed because he pled insanity to avoid a drug conviction is likely a legend. I think he was committed because he was crazy. The treatment in the hospital didn’t make him that way. There is a tendency to want to lay blame because it’s nice to think that it could have been avoided, but the only blame is Roky’s brain. Mental illness tends to manifest–with or without shock therapy–in the early twenties. This is exactly what happened to Roky. It’s not as cool a story, but reality never is.
Here’s what really happened. Don’t criticize what you don’t understand. You can read more on the actual (and living) members web site http://www.dkt-mc5.com. What kind of people try to take a guy’s songs from him?
An Open Letter from Wayne Kramer
(from April, 2004)
Re: Future/Now Films [David Thomas, Laurel Legler] & Rebecca Derminer (Tyner)
There have been vicious attacks directed at me in the last few days and I will tell you why I am protecting my rights — and those of the MC5 — from Future/Now Films.
Last month Dave Thomas, Laurel Legler and Rebecca Derminer (Tyner) entered a motion in court to strip me of my MC5 songs. Now, I must now defend myself both in federal court and in the court of public opinion. This is an effort on their part to coerce me to relinquish my rights to my work and my story.
Up to the day I was served with the court papers, I held out hope that they would do the right thing. They are doing this to me solely because I insisted they honor an agreement that was made between them and me at the start of this movie.
This is a great disappointment for all of us who worked so hard supporting a film we all believed in.
Dave Thomas and Laurel Legler should be explaining their actions to all of you. They are at the core of these attacks and have enlisted many, including Rebecca Derminer, to help them.
For people who throw the word “righteous” around a lot, they should know that it means right thinking and right conduct.
They have demonstrated neither.
Around 1996, Dave Thomas and Laurel Legler approached me. They wanted to make a film about the MC5. They said my participation was vital. They also said they had never made a full-length film before. I told them I would assist in whatever way I could under one condition: That I would be the music producer for the film and that I would share in any profits from my story. They assured me, without hesitation, that we had an agreement. We could both benefit from the fruits of our efforts. I would do the music and they would get their movie made.
In 1997 I worked with them in Chicago filming in Lincoln Park. The seven-minute trailer-with my interview-was completed and it won them the Roy W. Dean Film Grant award.
Through the whole of 1998 and 1999, our office arranged vital interviews for the documentary with people who had never agreed to be interviewed on camera about the MC5. These interviews were granted on the basis of my vouching for the filmmakers.
By fall 1999, I came to Detroit to be interviewed at length for the documentary. These interviews proved to be the backbone narrative for the entire film. I worked hard on the interviews and was committed to telling the story as honestly as I could: The good and the bad.
We moved ahead with our mutual plans for a companion soundtrack album with some great bands covering MC5 songs. Laurel Legler encouraged us to go into the marketplace to find a home for the soundtrack. We had commitments and even recorded tracks from major artists. Laurel Legler introduced us to third parties as the “music people” on the film. She sent us recommendations for our soundtrack project. We acquired distribution offers from credible music business companies. We even wrote a letter for Dave Thomas and Laurel Legler to their bank illustrating the nature of our agreement so that they could ask for money to get the film produced.
We endorsed their project to many companies here on the West Coast, including Warner-Chappell Music Publishing. We attended the initial meetings with Warner-Chappell so that, as prospective partners, Warner/Chappell could see that I was in support of the project. I was referred to during these meetings as the “music producer.” We were making great progress and we had substantial offers on the table.
After working with Dave and Laurel for four years bringing the film into production, we felt it was well past time to contract our agreement. We wanted what we had agreed on in the beginning of our work together. I made it clear to Dave Thomas that I had created my own job on the film and that we didn’t want what was theirs, only what we had worked for ourselves. I didn’t want their money, or their credit. In fact, we were creating income for Future/Now Films and their investors and the other members of the band and the widows, whose support we had also encouraged. Dave Thomas refused to discuss this with me.
In 2001, after much prodding, Dave and Laurel showed us 20 minutes of the film and it was clear that they had eliminated me from the music production work. We saw 20 minutes of a film with the music finished. I was extremely disappointed. Not by what they had done with the music, but that I had been lied to and used. We wanted answers. The more we reached out, the more they avoided us.
I signed their partnership agreement. Their lawyers told us that their agreement was not binding until I also signed an image and publicity release that I found to be egregious. I have not signed the release/waiver. It’s excessive.
They got what they wanted from me and kicked me to the curb without even a mention of our original agreement. I knew it was binding. I did business based upon it. I committed myself, and all my resources to their film. It was my work and it’s the story of my youth. It’s also my music. And apparently, it was my mistake in trusting them.
By April 2002, with the music work completed without my participation and all discussion of the accompanying soundtrack unresolved, the film was screened in Chicago. I was asked to attend, still with no explanation offered as to why my job was taken from me. Later, Dave told us that they would not be meeting with us to discuss our outstanding business.
We considered withdrawing our endorsement. We discussed it with Dennis Thompson and Michael Davis. We called the investors. We reached out to Dave and Laurel and their attorneys–personally and through our attorneys–by telephone, fax, email and by letter and they ignored our attempts to resolve matters.
Warner-Chappell asked us if matters had been resolved. They had not, but we still did not stand in the way of F/NF’s efforts to find distribution for the film. Perhaps there was still hope for resolution? We had worked hard on it and spent a great deal of our own money. We agreed to a festival-only license. Warner/Chappell issued a one year-limited gratis license to the filmmakers, which expired in early Fall 2003.
They continued to screen the film after the license expired.
Still, we remained open-minded. We even offered them the job as the production company on our own performance DVD and event in London last year and we offered–as an olive branch–to host a screening of their film to students in London. To all of this we have been denied consideration. As a thank you, they bullied and threatened our partners on the project.
At one point later, Dave Thomas called me and asked what I wanted. Again I gave him my request that he honor our original agreement. He refused.
We requested that W/C withhold a license to the music. They honored the request of Dennis Thompson, Michael Davis and me. They continue to do so.
F/NF continues to screen the unlicensed film in cities across the country for profit, making it, officially, a bootleg film.
The soundtrack album is lost forever and I am being demonized for demanding what was promised to me from the beginning. Am I expected to throw away the rights to my music and my story because the filmmakers have made a “righteous” movie about a “righteous” band? Horseshit. I did all that was asked of me, and much more. All we expected was an opportunity to earn a living doing what could be done with my own music and my own story.
If my partners in the MC5 and the widows and friends wanted to tell their story and contribute to this film for their own reasons, or-not, that’s perfectly fine with me. I have no quarrel with them. But that is not the reason I became involved. I wanted to work. That’s all I ever wanted. I didn’t want anyone to give me anything. I do music for film and television for a living. I was willing and able to generate my own paycheck, but Dave Thomas and Laurel Legler took that away from me. Even after they assured us time and again that we were their full partners.
W/C is protecting their copyrights, as is their legal responsibility. Their attorneys have sent a cease-and-desist letter to all involved with Future/Now Films, who have brought this upon themselves.
Future/Now Films have responded to my right to protect my body of work and my image by filing a motion against me in federal bankruptcy court. They are attempting to blackmail me into agreeing to their license. It’s an onerous maneuver. They hold a metaphorical gun to my head and then ask if I’m willing to help them with their “license problems.” They have enlisted Rebecca Derminer (Tyner) as their emotional enforcer. She has co-signed their motion.
They reveal their contempt for me by having their attorney call with the promise that they want to “make Wayne a star.” As if I’m a naïve teenager with rock star fantasy.
Dave Thomas has told a professional associate that they will “take Wayne’s publishing from him in 30 days.” I have also been told that they will “write a book called I Killed Wayne Kramer,” and that they are “taking this to the press. We will make Wayne Kramer look like a fucking idiot, the asshole that he is” is soon to begin. This is ugly stuff coming from folks who “sob to journalists” over their troubles. Where is your dignity?
Because I required them to be honorable in their dealings with me, and after years of restraint, I’ve had enough. We have waited a long time to work this out. We have been patient. They’ve had years to talk to me. I am not an unreasonable man. I was willing to talk right up to the day I was served with their motion to invade my personal life. Now there is nothing in this for me but the expense of defending myself in court and the use of my time writing essays like this one. I don’t need their film to make my life complete. I have a good life. I have been telling the story of the MC5 all my life. It belongs to me and my partners in the band, not Future/Now Films.
Sadly, my relationship with Rebecca Derminer and her family, that I have worked so hard to mend since Rob’s death, has been utterly destroyed.
I’m no saint. I’ve been to prison, I’ve been to skid row, I’ve been homeless and in rehab and have known some shady characters in my day, but rarely have I come across people whose actions have been as cowardly, unprincipled, duplicitous and fundamentally dishonest as Dave Thomas, Laurel Legler and their attorneys Bob Labate and Peter Strand.
Wayne Kramer
So let me get this straight, Kramer had no actual written agreement to work on the film, the way you would have on any film and then when the filmmakers decided that they wanted to use something else, he got mad? And now he wants money for work he didn’t do? Or is he saying that the work he did was getting the blessing of some his friends so that they could get interviews? Do these people rely on Kramer to bless all their decisions? That’s just ridiculous. Kramer saw the documentary as a way to make money and was upset about it when they decided that they didn’t want to use him for the music, where he could actually make money. He worked hard on the interview? Great, but the subject of interviews in documentaries don’t get paid. If Kramer wants to tell his story and make money from it, he is free to make his own documentary. Nobody is stopping him.
I’m sure that both sides acted like children about the whole thing, but nobody is taking anybody’s songs. The filmmakers did the work and shouldn’t have to pay tribute to Kramer for doing so.
The judge in the case was pretty clear that Kraemer was pretty much talking out his arse and only one small piece of music (one that was deemed as incensequential) was ordered deleted from the film.
Wow, that is some story there!! I guess I would be upset if that shit happened to me, but something tells me that the other side of the story begs to be heard. I have to side with the jugde that said Kramer’s story was utter billshit. I guess a written contract is the thing that will seperate you from this horrible story.
Once again, you’re incorrect. The filmmakers and Rob Tyner’s widow tried to convince a judge in California to take Kramer’s songwriting rights and revenue from him. They failed.
If you read Windy’s reply you would see that there are two lawsuits going around. i think you are referring to the later one. In the one I am talking about where Kramer is battling the film-makers for a supposed breach of contract the judge was quite clear and the main issue was that the Kramer didn’t have sole rights to the songs but that it belonged to all of the members and their estates.
I don’t know what the outcome if any was related to the other.
…a second lawsuit started in the midst of all this about who had rights to the band name and who had rights to use Rob Tyner’s image and Rob Tyner’s family wanted more money and sued Wayne Kramer and it all got out of control
It doesn’t say anywhere there that the filmmakers are involved in that second lawsuit. And why would they be? I’m sure they have no interest in taking away Kramer’s publishing rights. All they did was license the songs for use in the movie, for which–get this–Kramer would have been paid, since presumably he has a share of the publishing.
Correct. After the 1st lawsuit filed and lost by Tyner, she filed a 2nd one. She lost that one because the judge said she has “unclean hands”. Then she filed a 3rd one against him.
The idea that Kramer would finally make the decision to get proactive in the defense of his songs makes perfect sense. Tyner and the filmmakers conspire in 3 lawsuits against him and he files 1 in california to protect his investment in the movie that he made a reality and to protect the misuse of his songs. He loses it because the families of the dead guys gave away his songs for free after the songs were stolen and put into a movie that made a profit.
The band members got no money from the ticket sales in all those cities where that movie played.
You do the math. Decent movie. Bad people.
Here’s more from the band’s own web site.
November 28, 2005
MC5 MEMBERS WIN LAWSUIT WAGED BY LATE SINGER’S WIDOW
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
DETROIT, MICH
SURVIVING MEMBERS OF INFLUENTIAL DETROIT ROCK BAND MC5 WIN LAWSUIT WAGED BY LATE SINGER’S WIDOW
United States District Court Judge John J. Feikens of the Eastern District of Michigan dismissed a federal lawsuit filed by the widow and children of the late Rob Tyner (aka Robert Derminer), former lead singer of the MC5, against the band’s surviving members and managers. Mr. Tyner died in 1991.
The judge’s ruling is a victory for the group’s surviving members Michael Davis, Wayne Kramer and Dennis Thompson as well as their managers and respective companies.
Ms. Derminer claimed the MC5′s surviving members had infringed copyrights, and the MC5 trademark, which is jointly owned by Ms. Derminer and the surviving members. He ruled that Ms. Derminer failed to prove her ownership interest in the alleged copyrighted works. He also determined that Ms. Derminer could not bring trademark infringement claims against the co-owners Davis, Kramer and Thompson.
Judge Feikens’ ruling follows the July 2005 denial by Magistrate Judge Mona Majzoub of Ms. Derminer’s request for a preliminary injunction against the group. Magistrate Judge Majzoub issued a 24-page opinion stating, among other things, that Ms. Derminer possessed “unclean hands” with respect to her claims of exploitation of the group’s copyrights, trademark and accounting revenues, and that, as a result, Ms. Derminer and her family were unlikely to succeed on the merits of their case.
“We are pleased with the judge’s decision. Becky Derminer’s repeated harassment of our clients is tiresome and disingenuous,” said Margaret Saadi Kramer, Wayne Kramer’s long-time manager. “Angela Davis and I will continue to defend our clients’ right to work.”
During the late 1960s and early 1970s, the MC5 composed and recorded three full-length albums, but are best known for their controversial hit “Kick Out The Jams.” The last performance of the original lineup was in December 1972.
In recent years, the surviving members of this influential band have reunited to perform concerts throughout the world. They also periodically release recordings of their work, most recently last year’s successful DVD “Sonic Revolution: A Celebration of the MC5.”
“This is a vindication of our clients’ position. Their intellectual property rights have been upheld,” said J. Michael Huget of Butzel Long, the Detroit-based firm which represents the surviving members.
Where does it say that the filmmakers were involved in any of those other lawsuits?
Right here, in an excellent article penned by John Sinclair.
Evidently convinced that Kramer would not cooperate, Future/Now and Becky Derminer teamed up to file a motion in Los Angeles on Feb. 27, 2004, to reopen Kramer’s Chapter 7 bankruptcy case from 1999.
The entire accurate account can be read in full here http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6324 .
And here as well, from Kramer’s open letter explaining why the film was stopped.
Last month Dave Thomas, Laurel Legler and Rebecca Derminer (Tyner) entered a motion in court to strip me of my MC5 songs. Now, I must now defend myself both in federal court and in the court of public opinion. This is an effort on their part to coerce me to relinquish my rights to my work and my story.
Yeah,anon, I’m not quite following your argument. You are mixing two different issues and lawsuits and lumping it all together as one. Additionally, the film was getting played at festivals which is usually is about trying to secure distribution for the film and creating buzz not about ticket revenues for those screenings.
The judge in the lawsuit in question, the one that involves the filmmakers,wrote a judgment that was pretty damning of Kramer not being able to satisfy the burden of proof.
Interesting article but it’s odd that Kramer is referred to as the songwriter when most songs were credited to the MC5.
A few key points made by the judge in what we are discussing:
7. The renewal copyright interests of co-authors Robert Derminer and Fred “Sonic” Smith in fourteen of the fifteen compositions are co-owned by their widows and heirs pursuant to section 24 of the Copyright Act of 1909, former 17 U.S.C. section 24, in that Deminer and Smith died before the commencement of the renewal term. (Order on Summary Judgment Motions.)
8. Over the years, there has not been a clear record kept of ownership rights to copyright claims for MC5 music, with confusion resulting from distraction, indifference, and other matters. Non-party witnesses such as Angela Davis and Michael Davis identified this confusion.
30. Much of this case rests upon the credibility of witnesses, and the Court finds that Thomas and Legler were far more credible than Kramer on key issues concerning alleged promises, representations and commitments.
33. The Court concludes that there is insufficient factual basis to establish that a contract was formed that any of the Plaintiffs could enforce. Contract terms were never certain, and there was no meeting of the minds. The burden of proof on any contract claim was not met by any of the Plaintiffs.
The lawsuit in the Sinclair article is the first lawsuit and not any of the subsequent lawsuits. Yes, the filmmakers sued to secure the rights to use the songs in the movie. No, they aren’t trying to take Kramer’s songs away from him. Where do you get that?
What filmmaker in their right mind sues a songwriter IN BANKRUPTCY COURT to secure song rights?
I’m not following “In their right mind” but here is an excerpt to answer your question in as best as I can condense it…The full article is here [http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/archive/mc5/
On February 27 Future/Now and Rebecca Derminer filed a motion in Los Angeles federal bankruptcy court to reopen Kramer's Chapter Seven. According to Thomas they hoped to "determine if in fact [Kramer] had any publishing rights for the music of the MC5.” Neither he nor Legler made clear what they planned to do with the information.
In his original filing, Kramer did not list, or “schedule,” future royalties from record sales or publishing as assets. That’s the technical grounds for Future/Now’s motion, which adds that potential income from the documentary project should also have been included.
It goes on to argue that the case should be reopened so that a trustee can be appointed to determine the value of the assets and whether Kramer should be forced to liquidate them “for the benefit of creditors,” including Derminer.
….
Kramer’s opposition response claims the omission of his future royalties was an honest mistake and requests that the file be reopened so he can amend it.
…
After a hearing on April 6 in Los Angeles, where Kramer lives, the judge ordered that the Chapter Seven case be reopened “for the sole purpose of permitting” a trustee “to review and determine the necessity and extent of any investigation regarding potential assets in this estate. If no action is taken by the trustee by August 6, 2004, the Clerk shall re-close the case without further notice or order of the court.’”