Thursday, October 11, 2007

Week 50: My Summer Vacation 2, Violence

Right before we arrived in Puerto Rico for our vacation, a cop had shot and killed an unarmed man who was lying defenseless on the ground. He did it in plain daylight while surrounded by a number of people. One person there had a camera phone and videotaped the event. This person then posted the video on the internet, instead of selling exclusive rights to one of the various TV stations that made him offers. I’ve got some reservations about the idea of showing stuff like this, but ultimately I think it’s good to watch it. I may be wrong, but I’m going to take the chance. So here’s the video.


It’s fucked up.

Part of me is saying, yet another cop, letting his anger and fear get the best of him and abusing the power given to him when he got the right to bear a gun.

Part of me feels heartbroken for the three children of the guy who was shot. As a new father, my sensitivity towards the suffering of children has multiplied exponentially.

Part of me is reviewing all the encounters I’ve had with cops while breaking any number of laws, and how lucky I’ve been to have never had a cop break my head open. Even the one time I’ve been taken to jail, the cops that arrested me seemed to be basically nice guys.

Then I think about all the times the news have been filled with reports of cops acting in ridiculously violent ways towards mostly harmless civilians.

And this always leads me to think about Cerro Maravilla. When you see violence unfold at lightning speed, as in the above youtube video, it feels like an isolated incident, trapped in some weird far away land of cops and robbers, it feels like something that started and ended, and now it’s done. It is a very different experience when a violent act unfolds very slowly over many years, as in the slowest of slow motion cameras. So that each bullet is seen traveling its course for months before you see that its target is on his knees and begging for mercy. That's what the Cerro Maravilla executions were like.

I started to write about Cerro Maravilla and pretty soon I realized that I was going to have to write a complete history of violence in Puerto Rico, starting with the arrival of Columbus in 1493 and ending with the guy in the video above getting shot by a cop. Trying to describe the events at Cerro Maravilla to a non-Puerto Rican audience would take that long. Many Puerto Ricans are still trying to explain it to themselves after three different grand jury investigations over the course of twenty years. But don’t worry I’m not going to write a complete history of violence, as appealing as that sounds, not yet.

For now this is all I will do. A mentally unstable undercover agent infiltrated a group of three college-aged friends who wanted to fight the power that the US holds over the island. The agent convinced them to blow up a communications tower as a symbolic gesture. The agent then got them the explosives, and on July 25, 1978, went with two of them (the third one ended up not wanting to go) to blow up the tower at Cerro Maravilla, a tower that unbeknownst to them wasn't even functioning.

When they got to the tower, they were ambushed by a large group of policemen. The kids surrendered, were handcuffed, made to kneel on the ground and then executed. The governor of the island at the time had told the cops to “teach the independentistas a lesson they would never forget.” And this is what the cops thought he meant.

Here’s the Wikipedia entry for the incident if you want to read a more detailed account.

I was twelve when the events at Cerro Maravilla took place, and all through high school I watched the first of three grand jury investigations that slowly began to reveal what happened. By the time I had finished college the opposition party had initiated a second grand jury investigation that seemingly contradicted the findings of the first investigation. And by the time I had moved to New York in 1997, there had been a third grand jury investigation, and the truth had become clear, even if maybe not to those involved in the grand jury investigations.

When one looks at something this closely, and for that long, the smallest aspect of the event explodes with significance and one starts to see the connection between all things.

On November 25, 1897, after more than 400 years of oppressive and violent colonial rule, the Spanish Government approved the Autonomic Charter, which gave Puerto Rico political and administrative independence from Spain, and jurisdiction over its own territory. On February 8, 1898, the new independent government officially began.

But independence was short lived. In April of that year the Spanish American War broke out. A few months later the Spanish had surrendered, and on December 10, 1898 had signed the Treaty of Paris which gave possession to the United States of the islands of Puerto Rico, Cuba, The Philippines and Guam. Of course, nobody in Paris cared to mention that Spain no longer had the right to offer Puerto Rico up as spoils of war since the island had been given independence a few months earlier. I think maybe they were thinking that something like the 5 second (or 5 month rule) applied in this case. During the war the Americans had landed in Puerto Rico where Spain still hadn't retired all it's military personnel, and once there, I don’t think they really cared whether they were rescuing the island from the Spanish colonial monsters or just invading a free country that was too young to know better.

Spain had left Puerto Rico in a sad state in every sense of the word, and the Americans arrived ready to help the poor Puerto Ricans better themselves. They would clean up the water, improve education and eradicate various diseases. But to do this they also apparently had to dissolve any kind of local government and impose an American military government.

By 1917, the US government granted Puerto Ricans U.S. Citizenship, which was enough to be able to draft them into World War I, but not enough to allow them to vote in US elections or have any representation in congress. And as if that wasn’t enough Congress also voted to affirm that Puerto Rico was not an incorporated territory and would therefore never become a state. Just in case any Puerto Rican mother whose son would die fighting the Germans might get the idea that she was making some sort of sacrifice towards getting some kind of representation in government.

By then some Puerto Ricans were beginning to get a good sense that the intentions of the US Government were not as altruistic as some might have thought. Cuba had been given independence but not without having a clause in its constitution that allowed for the US to intervene at any time they felt the Cubans were “straying” from the path. The Philippines, like Puerto Rico, were also handed over by Spain and accepted by the US, even though they had already won their independence, and therefore had to fight a war against the US to regain what they already had.

In Puerto Rico what followed were a series of violent confrontations between the local law enforcement officers and various more or less nationalist groups.

Among the most violent were the Ponce Massacre on July 25, 1936. And the Jayuya Uprising on October 30, 1950.

Then on July 25, 1952, the US government granted Puerto Ricans self-government. What this meant was that we could elect our own government officials and write our own constitution as long as it was approved by congress. As it turned out the constitution was sent back and forth so many times to congress (Puerto Ricans wanted to add health care and housing as a right), that eventually the US Government just settled for adding some small print at the end that gives congress the right to invalidate the constitution any time they feel Puerto Ricans are not going about democracy the right way.

This constitution along with the distraction of having elections every four years and acting like the US Government might listen to something we say, when in fact we don’t have any voting representation in Washington, has not kept the peace. During most of the 1960s and up through most of the 1980s Puerto Rican nationalists took most of the spots on the FBI’s top ten most wanted lists, and were a major focus of the FBI’s Cointelpro program.

Of course, there are many reasons for violence, not all of it is political, but it all has the same source. But even as much as I sometimes feel like cutting the balls off some cop, maybe the one in the above video, in the end Gandhi was right, and its best to just stick to making music.

The Calle 13 kids did just that, and as with the death of Filiberto Ojeda Rios have recorded a song, a Tribute to the Police, and released it free on the internet. You can download it here.

Labels: , , ,

38 Comments:

Anonymous Charlie Naked said...

I always enjoy reading this blog:

http://realart.blogspot.com/

The guy who does Real Art & Politics has an ongoing series of blogs he revisits from time to time dealing with police corruption and brutality, and has a very lucid and reasonable theory that it all boils down to an intentional but LONG-standing police culture, which teaches cops to see themselves as better than (and more to the point, "different" from) the citizens they're supposed to be serving, while also teaching them an "us vs. them" mentality that causes them to protect each other, even when they know what's going on is wrong. Anyway, I'm not doing it justice, but he's got a real point, so you should check it out. Relations between the police and any citizenry would be greatly improved if that police culture could be significantly altered to erase that separation between cops and citizens, and make it a little more like cops are there to protect and to serve, not to bully and intimidate.

October 11, 2007 2:44:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

Got stopped once by four coppers outside the Axiom when I was but a wee lad hanging with my Sik Mentality brethren. We had no drugs or alcohol on us but Sean had some lyrics in his pocket. Which the biggest Ahole copper pulled out and started reading out loud. Had some stuff in it about cops being the german shepherds and us being the rats. Little 17 year old me was pissed off because we weren't doing anything wrong and they knew it by this point and were just screwing with us. So I asked him if he thought it was gonna be a hit. And sure enough he hit me right across the face. Words. Not down with the police.

Down with island people. I mean I'm down with island people. Glad there's a lot of them in Chicago though because they sure wouldn't fit on those islands any more.

When I'm in a better frame of mind maybe I'll watch that video.

October 11, 2007 5:05:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

I meant to add, on the lighter side of things, that I met little Marina yesterday. c*u*t*e!

October 11, 2007 5:20:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

People suck Carlos, but you're pretty great.

One time I was hanging out with a friend in some undeveloped neighborhood. A plain clothes cop came up to us and made us get out of the car. We had been doing a little bit of the messing around, and he was harassing us. Didn't ask if I was okay or anything, so it wasn't a welfare check. He was a real creep. When I got home, I called the police station to report him. I described the badge he had, what he was wearing and recounted everything he had said and done. You know what the cop on the phone said, " It would appear that you and your friend were the victim of a police impersonator." To which I said, "Well if that isn't the most convenient shit I have ever heard." My friend and I took a ride through the area again, and saw that the ATF was patrolling the area since my call. That was fucking weird. But my point is that, we give so much power to law enforcement because we are scared of ourselves and our neighbors. But no one thinks too often about the fact that the police ARE ourselves and our neighbors. And everyone knows how shitted up we are inside.

Thanks as usual for the post Carlos. I need the education.

October 11, 2007 5:21:00 PM EDT  
Anonymous Matthew Thurman said...

Hello, just wanted to stop in and tell Cramer that the Steppenwolf show was either the '88 or '89...I'm not entirely sure. The openers were Rare Earth and The Guess Who...I know this because I was there. And I didn't even live in Houston at the time...I specifically drove over an hour to see the boys...and I fucking love Steppenwolf. Of course I do, does anyone even have to ask? Pray that Michael Vick gets raped in prison. Love...

October 11, 2007 5:22:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

people don't suck that's why the idea that we need a police force to govern us is suckie.

October 11, 2007 5:28:00 PM EDT  
Blogger baleen said...

It's also important to keep in mind the overall increase in "security" nationwide since 9/11. I read a great article in the U.K. Guardian online (lost the link) that described the security industry in America and everything tied to it is booming like crazy. It mostly goes unreported in the MSM. This economic resurgence was compared to the dot.com boom of the 90's, here obviously in a completely different form. Notice how tasers are in vogue these days? Just sayin'

Related note: Hey Cramer: just read "STASI The Untold Story of the East German Secret Police" -fucking nuts!

October 11, 2007 6:06:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

No. I'm pretty sure people suck.

October 11, 2007 7:18:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

I certainly won't win this argument. Actually I agree with you but maybe out of context because I think people suck pretty damn good. Oh yeah.

October 11, 2007 7:39:00 PM EDT  
Blogger John Cramer said...

Case in point.

Hey Baleen, why are you mentioning the Stasi to me? I'm confused. Who are you anyway? Did I mention The Lives of Others, or something?

October 11, 2007 9:05:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Justin said...

No, Stapler is right. People suck. Give them power and they will abuse it. Because they suck. It has nothing to do with a cop culture, you only need to see the results of the Stanford Prison Experiment to see that it doesn't take any specific person or culture to inspire abuse. It happened on day two of the experiment.

October 11, 2007 9:54:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Carlos Anaconda said...

I dont know if people suck in the infinitive like that, but we are certainly capable of extreme suckiness. all of us. the stanford prison experiment is pretty good indication of that. people who suck the most? those that think they are above sucking.

one time, driving to florida from houston i pulled over into a convenience store somewhere around Baton Rouge, bought a 40 oz beer, did a fat line of speed and got back on the freeway only to be pulled over almost immediately. I stashed the beer among the crap laying all over the floor of the front seat and stepped out of the car trying not to look like a speed freak too much. my dog was barking out the window of the car as the cop took a flashlight and inspected the inside of the car. he then told me that i had spilled my beer all over my stuff, then he asked me where i was going. I'm going to college in florida, i said. You finished high school? he asked. Then gave me a speeding ticket, told me to take it easy and sent me on my way. Generally thats been my personal experience with cops, don't ask me why. I had a friend who couldnt step out fo the house without cops harrasing her to no end and taking her to jail.

the security boom was horrible in new york right after 9/11. i remember riding the subway and the conductor would be wearing a gas mask. Where was my gas mask? we lived by the mostly deserted station of Vernon Blvd and Jackson Ave on the 7 line, yet they had all this extra securty there just in case someone tried to break into the subway by scuba diving into the east river and drilling their way in through the underwater subway tunnel. it was totally james bond, but without the good looking people or the cool gadgets. it wasnt long before we decided it was time to move somewhere else.

K, glad you got to meet the girl, you've got loads of cuteness coming your way too. And glad you're enjoying the island people.

And HS, youre pretty great too :)

October 11, 2007 11:34:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

well it's obviously because you're pretty great Carlos!

October 12, 2007 1:30:00 AM EDT  
Anonymous brian Furr said...

carlos,
great article. in my ignorance, i didn't realize that modern puerto rico was such a troubled place. the island should either be the 51st state or given complete independence. being a territory or protectorate seems like an unacceptable limbo.
about the video. sometime in the early 80's, i saw a 60 Minutes story about torture. at one point, they interviewed a former, allegedly reformed torturer(i think he was nicaraguan. not sure). when the interviewer asked him how he could have done what he did, he stated (me paraphrasing) that when you become convinced both of the absolute, undeniable right, the "good" of your side, along with the utter wrongness, the "evil" of your enemies, any horrible act is permissible. years later, i met a salvadorian p.h.d. candidate here in austin. he told me that recent investigations have shown that soldiers who participated in the salvadorian death squads in the 80's have extremely high rates of alcoholism, homelessness, and suicide. if true, this tells me that only the most sub human people can commit acts of brutality and not have it stay with them forever. if i were a buddhist, i would feel just as sorry for the cop in the video as for his victim. i don't think i'm there yet.
if you have time, please check out my recent blog entry (on my myspace page) titled "pancakes not tasers". the article concerns some recent police problems here and is meant to be half flippant and half dead serious. your comments would be most welcome.
lastly, are you familiar with a site called reddit. com? i think this article is more than good enough to be (re)posted there.

October 12, 2007 1:34:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

YOUTUBE Stanford Prison Experiment Footage

It all seems kind of ridiculous. 6 days is all they lasted? I thought Stanford was a good school. "The illusion became the reality". I just don't see it. I don't see how people could cave in so quickly. You aren't being beaten. Sure you're not comfortable.. but.. I don't know. Of course I wasn't there. Its bizarre how no one apparently "quit" because they thought the couldn't. I totally believe how the guards turned into assholes... But the prisoners had no heart. Maybe because it was only for six days.

The video is a decent summary.

And brian, I checked out your blog and made a comment. It is a small world indeed.

October 12, 2007 3:34:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

Besides the Frankenstein moment, in the video... I think that the conversation and body language shared by a mock prisoner and a mock guard at he end of the video speaks volumes.

October 12, 2007 3:45:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Carlos Anaconda said...

Brian, you are right about PR, the current state is basically a glorified banana republic, a colony that the US has managed to disguise as something else for the UN. The disguise is the pretension that Puerto Ricans voted for this, when in reality we just voted for something a little better than what we had before since those were the only choices we got. Representative Serrano D-NY has an initiative in congress right now to do a referendum and let the people decide, and not give them the status quo option. The problem is that the US government has never made a commitment to abide by what the vote results of a referendum turn out to be. The bottom line is the US government is going to do what it wants to do. real democracy. the situation is a catch 22, and no one seems to be wanting to deal with it, and economically its a dead end, cause the US just has to keep pumping more and more money into it, and there is no real production going on. Something is going to give at some point, and then its going to be really ugly. i hope i'm wrong.

and yeah, karma is a bitch. I wouldnt want to be in no torturer's head. But I bet a lot of them can drink their way into oblivion wihtout nearly the same kind of suffering they inflicted on others.

I checked out your blog and commented. great post. I suspect we're gonna be hearing a lot more about tasers in the coming months/years.

as for reddit.com no i'd never heard of it, i'd be happy to have this reposted anywhere, how does that happen?

October 12, 2007 10:09:00 AM EDT  
Blogger baleen said...

Hey John,
Relax, Baleen is Gerry, you know-bass player for Keenlies, Run Trip n Fall, Novox. (shameless plug). Book lover of words and such. Didn't know the mere mention of STASI would elicit such paranoia. I read the book before I saw "The Lives of Others" but it made the movie that much better. I just want to contribute to the blog in a constructive way. peace...

October 12, 2007 10:56:00 AM EDT  
Blogger ramona said...

One of my worst fears is to be locked up for being crazy or for something I didn't do because of the Authority. Oddly, an incident about 2 months ago came too close for comfort.
I'm walking to my parking garage in downtown Austin and I see tape covering the ends of the road blocking the block - and my exit from the garage. I see three cops on bikes and that's it. I try to catch their eye as I walk on through, but nobody even looks my way. Not like they are busy.
The blonde lady cop freaks out a person as they are leaving the garage by blocking their way and sending the back down the one way to the other end of the block.
By this time I'm almost at the garage and they all start yelling at me and don't I know I'm walking past a potential bomb in a car. Uh no - where's the flashing lights, where's the bomb squad, why is there only this tape and your bikes?
So I get to my car and start coming down but they say we can't leave because of this car bomb - which is right next to the building. I am thinking only of my children which I have to pick up and I bully the officer who is bullying me to give me his damn phone so my husband can pick up my children.
Not one minute later, all is done and we're free to go and the tape is gone and the cop yells at me as I drive by and the lady cop sneers at us all but then laughs as if it's one big joke.
There was nary a word about it on the news or the paper on anywhere.
What the fuck was that?

When they're good, they're really good and when they're bad, they're awful.

October 12, 2007 11:40:00 AM EDT  
Blogger ramona said...

Also, the freak out in 6 days kind of explains why people who switch houses on reality shows, like Wife Swap, always lose it within a half day of their switch. Crying almost always ensues.
It's like they forgot that they volunteered for it and that it will be different. But they always lose it. Weird.

October 12, 2007 11:42:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Justin said...

Anybody can submit a story for Reddit, you just have to register first (which takes all of a minute). Though, for the story to make the front page, people have to vote it up. There have been an awful lot of police brutality stories on the front page there recently, so maybe yours can be one of them.

October 12, 2007 1:26:00 PM EDT  
Anonymous Charlie Naked said...

I have to disagree with your assertion that cop culture has nothing to do with it Justin... on the contrary, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with it, but I also think it is not the only culture that causes these problems. The Stanford Prison Experiment backs this concept up in that people were slipped into roles, and thus into a contextual culture, that of the prison culture, and the prisoner subculture and guard subculture that make them up. They probably weren't there long enough to really delve deeply into either culture, which is why I imagine they didn't start raping each other for supremacy, but they were aware enough of the culture that goes with the roles to start playing it out almost immediately, just as little kids start playing out cop culture the minute they play "cops and robbers" or some such game. We are all innately aware of the cultures these various positions cultivate, and so when slipped into those roles, even temporarily, we take on the culturally-dictated characteristics.

Now, I don't think this is completely divorced from the concept that we all suck... I would be the first one to tell you that in my opinion, for instance, most of the dominant economic/political systems of government work wonderfully in theory, and are only messed up because of humanity's inability to be decent to one another, and to be naturally altruistic. It's this same lack that causes things like police culture or prison guard culture or whatever else to emerge and become the dominant paradigm. Cops act that way because they feel like they're SUPPOSED to act that way, or perhaps for the truly committed, they HAVE to act that way. For some of them it's a mode of survival even. But none of that changes the fact that if somehow the whole of cop culture could be convinced that they should be helping their fellow human beings rather than being guard dogs and intimidators, I think they'd generally get better results, and enjoy a far greater reputation than they currently have. Plus, things like tasering kids at a show or shooting unarmed civilians would happen far far less frequently.

October 12, 2007 2:14:00 PM EDT  
Anonymous brian furr said...

ramona, wtf indeed. i read the statesman almost every day, the chronicle every week, and listen to kut in the morning. this is the first i ever heard of a downtown bomb scare. were the three bike cops maybe playing some kind of head game?

October 12, 2007 2:25:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Justin said...

What I was getting at about cop culture is that it's not some organized thing that people are brainwashed into being. Instead, that behavior is something that people just have. Nature, rather than nurture. Mind you, there has to be the right circumstance for that behavior to express, but once the situation is there, the behavior is almost inevitable. For example, I can't believe anybody was shocked by Abu Ghraib. Did they really not see that coming?

October 12, 2007 3:50:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

"..if somehow the whole of cop culture could be convinced that they should be helping their fellow human beings rather than being guard dogs and intimidators, I think they'd generally get better results, and enjoy a far greater reputation than they currently have."

I filled out an application to Cloth World once. It included a 200 question personality test. The test asked questions like, "If your children were hungry, would you steal to feed them?" So, of course I answered "yes". But I didn't want the job that bad, and I figured there was some kind of psychologist who would go through all of my answers and see that I was a decent person. It was a fairly invasive questionaire. Maybe there are study guides for that kind of shit.

What I am getting at, is maybe there is no resolution to alleviating the discord between us and the cop culture. It is mostly environmental and situational aggression. When I lived in Hollywood, things were crazy on the streets at night, and I appreciated the police presence. They were too busy dealing with truly fucked up scenarios to hassle me.

I am sure that police departments have a screening process. Hopefully something a little more intense than Cloth World. But seriously, all you have to do is lie to get a job you really want. Who would agree to spend money on a screening process that would likely erase a huge percentage of our current police force based on discriminating against those with unsuitable personalities? No one would, because there aren't enough police on the force to even make a dent because off all the absurd laws we enforce. It's truly so convoluted, I have no idea what the answer is. There's no cops here though, so... uh... not my problem UNTIL we need an asshole with a gun and a badge... and when you really need one... You really need one. There's been times I would prefer the dick to the nice guy. You're never going to find Bruce Lee on the force.

October 12, 2007 5:19:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

Could I possibly accomplish any less by being so verbose..

I wanted to address baleen real quick like.

Baleen, I think your comments and input to the blog have been great. I can understand John's reaction though. Most of us don't have any anonymity in this endeavor, and so sometimes the participation by people who allude to knowing us in some way, who don't know the identity of can be a little perplexing and sometimes aggravating. So thanks for letting us know who you are. I for one have seen the Keenlies way back when they first started up, and I still remember the fish sticks in the bottom of the hole.

October 12, 2007 5:52:00 PM EDT  
Blogger ramona said...

About Austin - I don't know. I thought they might have all been imposters, but a woman I worked with recognized the blonde woman by my description and had her own story to tell about her being overly aggressive. So, she's real. I am saying nothing to the cops until I'm sure I have a wide swath of people behind me to make sure they know what's up and can make sure the police don't do something to me just for complaining.

About cops - It's little pay, so it's kind of like luck of the draw with teachers. Except now they don't let teachers give swats anymore so you don't get beat by them. But I think you get sucked into that kind of brutality if you're a cop. You just get used to it. Just like watching a lot of porn, your ability to withstand the amount of boobies you see changes. Sometimes you may not even notice them because you've seen them so much, but the Quaker next to you is going to have a conniption.

I think in general people don't like being told what to do, and when they are told to do something it better be for the best most pristine or highest priced reason. Otherwise, you will pay!

Kind of the same reason we have problems with bosses.

I can't believe Cloth World made it into my conscious after so long. That makes me laugh and laugh.

October 12, 2007 5:53:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

Stacey....

About the boobs.

My husband likes to yell out "One for the ladies!", and I'll look around the corner at the television and see some tits flopping around and a guy's ass. Not too much going on there for a lady like me I guess... So... Maybe I'm like a quaker cop.

October 12, 2007 6:07:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

Hey Gerry - glad to know that's you. I hope some day that Novox is playing when I'm in town. You guys make a great trio.

re: suckiness - you can make a case for people suck or people don't suck. you can say people suck because of stuff like the stanford prison experience; or you can say people don't suck because affluent suburbs have low crime rates. in any event it's easy as hell to poke holes in the argument.

you either start with the premise that people suck or that people don't suck. it doesn't make you smarter or more realistic to be either.

just one starts with respect for your fellow man and the other starts with none.

now, where's my flag? do you see me saluting over here? I'm an American!

and now I have to put on my ugly face and go rock with some haggard punks.

October 12, 2007 7:49:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Head Stapler said...

Kilian said, "just one starts with respect for your fellow man and the other starts with none"

So, People = not sucking is respectful
People = sucking is disrespectful

Well, I know this is a stupid argument, but for the record, thinking that people suck in general is no more disrespectful than thinking that people are helpless to dying. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with a personal attitude. I'm caring but I also suck. All disrespect to myself intended.

October 12, 2007 8:25:00 PM EDT  
Blogger John Cramer said...

Oh, hey Jerry! I wasn't angry, just confused. Welcome, and long overdo at that.

October 12, 2007 8:49:00 PM EDT  
Blogger baleen said...

Sorry for the confusion. I'm usually in the back of the room at parties.
DeSchmog and Sprawl were great because I couldn't stop smiling and dancing.I forgot about the world for awhile. And that sir, is what it's all about. Good show.

October 13, 2007 4:05:00 AM EDT  
Blogger baleen said...

De Schmog and Sprawl rocked the house. I just couldn't stop smiling.

October 13, 2007 4:16:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Charlie Naked said...

Yeah, I think the "people suck" thing is just a little too generally worded, so I'm going to try to say what I think the issue is in a manner that doesn't really involve respect or lack thereof... what it really is (and I KNOW Sparrow will back me up here) is that humans are basically animals. And while most animals rarely visit real violence and death on their own species, many of them do have a very non-altruistic pecking order that must be enforced.

I guess I'm thinking of apes. Being our closest relatives species-wise, apes offer a real window into our own behavior, in a more nakedly primal mode. Apes have a social structure that involves a top guy, an alpha male, generally the biggest guy who can defend his position from all comers. There is no democracy or even distribution of resources; he takes what he wants for himself, and the rest of the apes get what they need after he's done. I remember when I went to Bali, I spent a lot of time observing the macaque monkeys in the forest temples there, and if one such larger monkey was among the group, none of the others would go for any food you threw them out of fear of him, and he would run around and grab up all the food you threw out for himself. I even saw him extract a banana out of another monkey's mouth by force. This is what our nearest genetic relatives behave like. I think the unique human brain has given us some good things, and some bad things. I think one of the good things is maybe more of a sense of the benefits and general fairness of cooperation and democracy. Maybe one of the bad things is the understanding that others will fear you more and do your bidding more willingly if you demonstrate your willingness and ability to kill.

Anyway, I guess that's what "people suck" really means to me. It's not a value judgment really, it's just an understanding that people are a constant walking contradiction of human intelligence and understanding combined with underlying animalistic desires, such as domination and selfishness.

October 13, 2007 11:19:00 AM EDT  
Blogger John Cramer said...

Jesus, you people suck.

October 13, 2007 11:33:00 AM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

The truth (whatever that means) is in the mix, as always. I just can't let a "people suck" hang out there without sucking on it. The argument is pretty hilarious at this point.

I bring up the other side mainly in tandem with the police thing. I can see a place where a police force isn't necessary, you know, because given the right conditions, we don't need one. I think of all my family and friends. They don't need police supervision. I, for one, have never been in a situation where I was thankful there was a dude with a gun and a pension handy.

I'm actually like Carlos in that I usually get along with an officer and you know, do that stay on your best behaviour thing. I once was asked to join the force while waiting for an Austin cop to run my license. They had a new dispatcher and it was taking for ever. We got to talking so long, he finally offered me a job. And when the dispatcher came back and said that my license was expired, he didn't write me a ticket.

City police at least in Chicago are actually pretty lax in a good way - as conditions get better so the job will change.

Animals don't have police, they have predators.

October 13, 2007 1:35:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Kilian said...

Btw that cop pulled me over because I was driving slow so I could read the street signs in the dark. He thought maybe I was casing the neighborhood. Wasting my time!

October 13, 2007 1:48:00 PM EDT  
Blogger Charlie Naked said...

Yeah, honestly I've almost never had problems with cops... I just end up reading about and seeing clips of police brutality, hearing about it from people, and the stories range from just odd to seriously scary and offensive, and it just gets me to thinking, apparently probably a bit too much judging from my last post. :)

October 14, 2007 1:50:00 PM EDT  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home