Sometimes it’s nice the way a project develops over a long period of time. And by project I mean the working out of particular ideas and their documentation.
As time and energy are put into it, the project begins to take a life of it’s own and to suggest it’s own development. A long time ago, when I started working on the material that would end up being part of this project, I did it in an intuitive sort of way. A conversation with someone would stick in my head, or an image, or a dream, or a particular melody or structure. As these stuck in my head i would start putting them together into ditties and verses, bits and pieces. Over the past year, I’ve recorded the material and listened to it and edited it, and then re-recorded it and listened again, and edited again. And this cycle has been repeated several times. And each time connections between the parts and what the project is about begins to take focus.
Formally, it is shaping up to be in part a concept album, in the sense that it explores related ideas from different angles. It’s also a little bit like a musical, because there is an underlying story, although the story is more implied than literal. It does, however, have a certain melodramatic quality to it that is reminiscent of musicals. Ultimately, however, a formal categorization of the project is not that important except as it helps us move forward by giving it some momentary cohesiveness as it threatens to run wild. However, if one thing has become clear over the past year, it is that this record is an exploration into an ocean of intersections and contradictions, a place where opposites are not so opposite. In particular it is an exploration of how the way we feel about home and leaving can change over time.
Over the time I’ve been working on this project I’ve had many ups and downs about my feelings for it. We’ve kept on track though and now we’ve moved “out of a red flare of dreams and into a common light of common hours. Until old age brings the red flare again.” In that common light of common hours we float amidst a group of sounds, words and ideas that are taking audible shape as a horizon all around us. A changing horizon, so that what begins sounding like an answer often ends up being a question. “I hear the sounds of home” as a statement made by me changes suddenly into “Do you hear the sound of footsteps?” as a question I am being asked. And the horizon begins to take shape and as it does it gives the project its shape. Like the two years I spent reading the Brothers Karamazov, towards the end I felt like Dostoevsky was reading me rather than the other way around.
So what follows are windows whereby you can see individual tracks from the group that together form the ocean on which we tread, the ocean that is this project. Actually it’s more like surfing. Catching that wave as it’s rising, standing up on the board and riding it until the board is flowing with the wave. Then seeing the crest begin to turn and the pipe start to form, and we hunch down, point one hand towards the future, and use the other hand to trace the inside of the wave, feeling its shape, its flow, the undertow lifting from behind and propelling us forward. It is then that we begin to carve our leads into the giant and the music begins to really sing.
Ideally, at the end, the tracks should stand on their own, but right now it’s hard for me to see them individually. In each track I hear the echoes of the previous ones and the anticipation of the ones that follow. It feels weird to separate them from the group to post them individually here. Like my friend who would get all excited about playing a record, then he would play you only the first 10 or 20 seconds of a song before skipping to the next one. He wanted to play you the whole record in one minute. I always though that was so annoying. This feels like I’m doing that to you. But I’m not, because this songs can stand on their own. I hope.
We have been approaching these ideas with several different methodologies. Here’s a sample of the method whereby we start with drums and go from there. This is Double Sunglasses Sunday, which you heard in a previous post as a garageband sketch. Here it is still in a fairly basic form and still needing some work, but at this juncture this version is a good representation of the shape of the song.
Another method we are using is to start with vocals and guitar and go from there. Camilia is one of the songs we are producing that way. The plan is to add to this some piano, for more percussive rhythm, and pedal steel for more tears and air at the instrumental bridge.
On the above link, Camilia is followed right away by Double Sunglasses Monday which is what it’s like being lost in Montreal. In a previous post I posted the original Garageband version of this song. Here it is now in its almost complete form with real instruments.
I’m really getting a kick from transitions.
We are using other methods, including recording some songs live under the James Taylor bridge where the cars go thu-thump, thu-thump, thu-thump high above, but I’ll tell you more about those later.
It’s nice working on a project at this pace. Like a chess game where days go by between moves, but with more players. Maybe like that old negotiating game, remember Diplomacy?
In other news:
Valient Himself, leader of the Venusian rock and roll band Valient Thorr is donating one of his kidneys to his earth father. Read the press release here.
As a result of this Valient Himself has incurred some debt and to help pay for the debt he is auctioning a number of his paintings and has also promised to make a line drawing of any picture you send him for just $29.00 ($25 + $4 S&H). Here’s the link to that follow up post.
So contact Valient Himself through the Valient Thorr myspace page or write to Valient Himself at cloudbox@hotmail.com and ask for details. Valient Himself is doing the hard work of donating the kidney, your part would be to send a few dollars to help him pay the bills, and you’ll get an original Venusian line drawing of your mug, or any mug you like.
I’m glad you finally got back to this. Been curious.
Listened to the songs today. I won’t offer my criticism because you’re not asking for it anymore. I guess we’ve learned a thing or two about the constructive crticism capabilities of the NAP endeavor.
Curiously Yeats wasn’t all that old when he wrote that line. I wonder…
“I guess we’ve learned a thing or two about the constructive crticism capabilities of the NAP endeavor.”
what have we learned?
and yes, i continue to want criticism, even non-constructive criticism. I didnt think i had to ask for it. nothing has been released yet, so none of it is finalized and everything can change, if we so felt it was necessary. if you hear something i dont hear, then be a good buddy and mention it. I’m just one person, and can only do so much. assistance of all kinds is appreciated, as long as its well intentioned.
Wow, W, I detect a note of sarcasm. Could it be?
NTDs, I must admit that your description of the music is so damn good I can’t bring myself to actually listen to it yet for fear of disappointment. I will get over it and listen though, and then I’ll hit you up with comments. It takes at least a certain amount of balls to lay it out in a public forum before it’s done. Kudos there, hermano.
Okay, one at a time. Sunglasses does need fleshing out, true. that’s not a problem. I think the bass has too little attack, but that shouldn’t matter later on. I do think that the bass line is a little too choppy in the bulk of the song. It should swing a little more and define that rhythm a little more. Keys! Add keys! OR better yet, horns! Yes. It’s a simple song (which is a good thing), but it needs something to make it live a little harder. I want it to move me a little more. Then again, what do I know?
I’ll give the next one a whirl…
John, your disappointment will only make us want to make a better record. It’s ok to be disappointed. I’m often disappointed. And honestly i’m not totally sold on the way the first song is going, some things about it will be changed. But i really like the song, so i’m gonna keep trying to get it right. The other track (which is really two) i’m more convinced about, or at least so far. In the end its just a document of a particular period of time and the musical ideas we are exploring during that time.
wow, you are quick. i wrote that last comment before i saw your one about the song. I agree with you. and we are probably adding horns and keys to it. it needs a greater emotional range… just repeating what you said cause you are right on.
Nice transition. Nice guitar. I think the vocals throw me off, unfortunately. Her voice needs more around it than the guitar (I know you know that already). The baby rules. Babies always rule for me on record for some reason. I want to hear these songs drip with intensity. Not the kind I usually pimp. Just intensity in general. Moody music should sound like those making it are playing for the last time in their entire lives. I want to hear Camilia and feel like getting smashed and then sleep for a week.
I know, I know, not too constructive.
I’m trying. Post more.
By the way, I’m not disappointed, I’m encouraged. I’m encouraged because I know you’ve got some tricks up your sleeve. Ballsy.
Thanks John, i really appreciate your comments. It’s nice to hear taht you want more intensity, a good push is always helpful if one is to expose oneself more.
I’m just killing some time until you start posting stuff you’re working on …
Simple songs never get the complexity of emotion they need. These are songs with fairly traditional structures and ideas. That’s not a criticism. The trick is to take these songs and use them as a map to plan out how you want the listener to buy in to your heart. You are telling us stories with music. Those stories should sound like they mean it. I know you mean it, but the songs need to tell me that so that I can’t deny it. That makes them irresistable.
Keep waiting on that one. Me, I’m virtually bankrupt and living vicariously through all of you.
I will just point out that you said “virtually bankrupt”… i take that to mean, almost ready… it will happen when it happens, no rush.
And you are right, though easier said than done. I’ll be glad if one of the songs in the record works out to be irresistible. I think there’s a couple that have the potential. We’ll see…
Every song has that potential.
And I am not kidding. Don’t hold your breath on me.
For all my carping I have a hell of a lot of respect for the way you guys get it done. All of you fuckers.
oh come on now, not every song does. Some you know from the get go that they are just total crap.
It may be crap – and most are – but don’t blame the song, blame the people playing it who can’t listen to what it has to say, or simply don’t know how to handle it.
Sorry for sounding like Yoda.
Hey you guys make a good thread.
I listened to both songs several times today at work. I think they are recorded well. Diane drops out a bit on a couple of words which is surprising because she’s a consistent and loud singer. But a little compression would probably help.
I like the freeek out at the end of the second song but it totally comes from no where in a way that didn’t sit right with me.
I think you hit on something with the bit about it being like a musical. Because that’s Diane for sure.
But I have trouble with some of lyrics. Just in general maybe, but definitely because of Diane’s style. I think if Leonard Cohen was singing these songs he could go between the realism (the specifics of lines like the one about moving to Canada) and the more abstracted or dissected lines that follow. But Diane’s melodramatic style needs lyrics pinned to the ground. In any event I think she should sing them again because it’s not quite right and I don’t mean it’s out of tune. And maybe some lines just need to be fine tuned because you lose me in there every time.
There’s a lot to like though and I mean that. Color me impressed.
- – “I guess we’ve learned a thing or two about the constructive crticism capabilities of the NAP endeavor.”
what have we learned? – -
I wasn’t being sarcastic about this. It’s not something nap participants have been very good at. At least not in a straight forward way. Maybe that’s not altogether a bad thing either. At least nobody is being phony.
W, I appreciate your listening and commenting, and i dont want to sound greedy by asking for more, but i was left wanting more specifics from your comments.
Like, which freak out at the end of camilia? do you mean the whole other song that it transitions into? because other than that i’m not sure what freak out you are talking about. Maybe the increase rhythm at the instrumental bridge?
Also, i sort of get a sense about what you are talking about in re the lyrics in camilia, but i’d like to know which lines you would consider pinned down or realistic and which ones you consider abstracted or dissected. And which lines lose you ever time?
If you care to be more specific i would appreciate, but if not dont worry, your comments gave me some food for thought and some things to generally keep in mind which are good.
Like, which freak out at the end of camilia? do you mean the whole other song that it transitions into?
Oops, yes I didn’t catch the subtle difference in song titles. They blend in to one track nevertheless, right? I don’t know if they work that way. But I like the second song.
As far as the lyrics I think my criticism lies in the delivery more than anything else. I like plenty of songs where I don’t fully understand the lyrics, such as Cohen’s Suzanne. But delivery is important with a song like that. Sandy Denny and Vikki Clayton with Fairport Convention do that song well and Diane reminds me of them.
But Diane doesn’t seem to get these new NTD songs, not in delivery anyway. That’s my sense. I think the lyrics have something to do with that and maybe she just needs to find her way around the words a little more.
Camilia and DSMonday blend into one track for the version here. They are actually two separate tracks as far as recording them goes. I’m just experimenting a bit with transitions.
As for the vocals, telling someone they are not “getting” a song seems vague at best and not really helpful, esp. after what seemed like very specific issues you were pointing at in the previous comment(lyrics, style, realism abstraction, etc). What I interpret from what you are saying is that something doesn’t seem right to you and you think the vocals should be redone. Fair enough.
However, I was interested in that you had focused on Camilia, because I can find room for improvement more easily in DSSunday. Whereas I think Camilia is just where it needs to be at this point in the process. So I was hoping you would point out more specifics about it because I’m always looking to improve and to be shown areas for improvement that I might not have noticed. But if it’s between whether diane “gets it” or doesnt “get it”. I think she gets it.
Yes I agree that it is DSSunday that could stand the most improvement in terms of vocals and lyrics. I’m lost in the switches and while Diane is singing emphatically I’m wondering what the hell y’all are on about.
Camilia is still problematic. I want the song to be more uniquely personal lyrically. I’d like to know more, what did they have to begin with? I don’t know, also with the emphasis on the name I want it to be prettier (or sadder or something), not the name but the melody around it. It sounds flat.
I don’t mean that D doesn’t get a song intellectually. I mean to say that the delivery doesn’t hold me. These are songs that are meant to be singer songs but I find it hard to go the distance.
Sorry to sound harsh. Easy to be a critic I know. But again it’s mostly because I like what you’re doing (and who you are working with) that I say anything at all.
Hmm, ok. I dont think you sound harsh, just that I get the feeling we are listening to different material and i wish i could hear what you are hearing, but for the most part I dont. Like I would say that Camilia is extremely and uniquely personal, but maybe we use that phrase differently. I also consider it a plus (not a minus) that you’d like to know more, and that not all the questions have straight forward answers. What do you think they had before? As for pretty vs. sad… we are going more for sad, the way a tango might be sad.
And I think the lyrics, and the music in DSS are also fairly clear about what we are on about (if i’m correctly interpreting what on about means).
So i dont know… i appreciate your comments, but they still leave me wanting more clarity… probably just how you feel about the songs
My feeling is that I don’t connect with the vocal delivery and so ultimately the songs do not stick with me. Do you sense that at all?
Obviously I’m only one voice in the crowd.
I sense that you are not connecting with the songs and that it seems to be the vocals that are keeping you from connecting. I get that. Maybe later on you’ll feel differently, once the vocals are more mixed into the song (instead of right on top as they are now), and there are other instruments increasing the dynamics of the song. but maybe you wont. One can’t like every song.
I’m asking you if you sense a disconnect between the singing and the song.
Only in the way its mixed and the current incomplete instrumental arrangement. And I dont think that is what you mean.
I wish you could give me more specific examples/suggestions as to what you mean. Cause beyond the idea of the disconnect between vox and instruement, and the idea of making it prettier or sadder, i’m not getting much. Maybe you can record a version of the song (or part of the song) in the style you think it ought to have… just to get a sense. Meanwhile, I’ll try to find the version of Suzanne by the Fairport Convention to see maybe if i get more of what you mean.
Ultimately, however, i think maybe the problem lies in just that, you seem to be hearing the song through Cohen’s Suzanne, whereas IF i was going to see it in reference to the work of some high caliber songwriter (which i try not to do cause i dont want to emphasize my suckiness all that much), I think this song has more Nick Cave in it than Cohen.
Carlos, you are reversing roles here and critiquing my critiquing. Fine by me. I could use it and anyway I see this thread as an experiment of sorts.
I hesitate to do as you ask and record a version of these songs because that really seems to fall outside of the role of the critique-er. But maybe if I can find the time, put my money where my mouth is anyway.
I think you’re right to protect your songs from my projecting an imposed standard so even there I hesitate to send you the song, but given that here it is. You have to wait a bit for Vikki Clayton to come in, but it’s worth it.
p.s. that’s a wma file. let me know if it doesn’t work.
Who’s Carlos? (jk)
I like this thread, these are the kind of conversations (the one with you and the one earlier with john) that i’ve always wanted to have with these posts. Honestly, if you can’t get an honest opinion from friends, then from who? And if i’m not getting what you’re saying, I will “critique your critique”.
I realize that in a lot of classroom environments critiques are mainly one sided, and responses from the person being critiqued should be kept to a minimum. But we are not in a classroom and it seems perfectly natural to have this be more of a conversation than a critique as such.
That being said, the Fairport Convention version of Suzanne does not convince me. they seem to flatten the melody quite a bit, and make it into a march which is something i dont get from the original, nor do i see how it relates to the lyric. I do like Clayton’s voice in it and the way she sings it. She’s very much along that Grace Slick line of singing, which i think you are correct in associating with diane. But I really don’t hear how this song relates to Camilia, this version nor the original Cohen one.
The dude singing definitely flattens the melody and kind of helps make Clayton’s voice stand out. But my point there is that it is Clayton’s voice that is memorable. And so it will be with these NTD songs ultimately because NTD seems to be about complimenting the singer not drowning the vox out with instruments or even setting the vox in line with the instruments. NTD vox are front and center. I mean, unless you say otherwise.
Other than that I don’t think that song relates to what y’all are doing.
However you handle it I look forward to hearing the final result.
“NTD vox are front and center.”
That is correct.